Compsand Community

[paul cannon]

just a disccusion thread as there is trend toward veneers sourced from Rainforests and old growth forests
i gotta say for me this goes against the compsand philosophy
and while im not here to attack anyone or hurt anyones feelings
and the odd veneer board is by no means the crime of the century
i think it would be pertinent in the future to consider these issues

if you are using these timbers please ensure they are either recylced or sourced from local storm killed timber

timbers to avoid would include any rainforest species from south east asia and south america
such as teak,meranti,luan etc etc

plantation timbers are your best bet
for the yanks
plantation cedar,pines,cypress and firs are a likely choice
aussies have plenty to choose from

paulownia is an excellent choice 
it is fast growing plantation tree with high yeild and is lightweight
or bamboo

[peteuk]

hi paul, while i agree generally in principle with what you are saying making boards  with veneers just does/nt effect the big picture, there would/nt be one tree cut down if all they could sell the veneers to were the surfboard industry ,

just think of all the veneered kitchens, veneered doors, shop fitting, bank fitting, luxury yatchs,cars, the whole world over , these are the one who will never stop using veneers, etc i could go on , the point being what percentage is the board industry in all of this ,

not enough to make any difference, pete

[jeff matsuno]

Good call Paul.

 I got all excited about the doorskin project, too. It looked nice and was potentially inexpensive. I didn't think about the environmental cost.  Typical.

The poplar ply I used was from Italy, managed growth.  Of course we factor in the transportation "footprint" and it's not such a good choice either.

I understand bamboo, balsa and paulownia are super fast growing timbers, so there's no such thing as old growth balsa or paulownia.  But again no local products (balsa or Paulownia in California..don't know where they're growing the bamboo).

I guess for California builders the best bet for timber would be Pacific Coast grown, FSC certified, spruce, fir or redwood (is there such a thing as FSC redwood?).  In case anybody doesn't know-  FSC (not to be confused with FCS) is the Forest Stewardship Council and they certify products which are grown and harvested in an environmentally friendly, sustainable way.  Of course their certifications are not easy to find.  You won't find them stamped on plywood at Home depot. You basically have to email them for the product you are interested in and they will email you back with a list of possible sources, and these are not guaranteed to have what you're looking for.

We should start a resources section for all sorts of supplies.

I once suggested at Sways that they start a Environment section for updates, alerts, online petitions, etc.  It was hailed as a great idea by a moderator there but ended with that. 

I think surfers, whose playground is in nature, are a little bit more sensitive than most, a lot less sensitive than some, to environmental issues.

Where's Benny?  He's pretty in tune with this stuff.  If I'm not mistaken he runs a recycling center.

[jeff matsuno]

hi paul, while i agree generally in principle with what you are saying making boards  with veneers just does/nt effect the big picture, there would/nt be one tree cut down if all they could sell the veneers to were the surfboard industry ,

just think of all the veneered kitchens, veneered doors, shop fitting, bank fitting, luxury yatchs,cars, the whole world over , these are the one who will never stop using veneers, etc i could go on , the point being what percentage is the board industry in all of this ,

not enough to make any difference, pete

I understand what you're saying, but that's kind of a defeatist attitude and exactly the one the bigger consumers use to justify there destructive practices.  You got to start somewhere, and your personal use is the place.

[peteuk]

hi jeff/paul, i just get tired of this enviro approach sometimes, i was in surfboard factory awhile  ago and there was a rep there tying to sell some bio foam from the homeblown works here in the uk , he went on about how the blanks were 35 % more carbon friendly than normal blanks , i was determined i was/nt going to say anything but in the end i just could/nt hold my tongue any longer,

so i just made the fact clear that the growth of surfing .inso much that people travel from london to cornwall (250 miles) for a swell in 4 wheel drives doing 25 to the gallon just can/t balance out no matter how many bio foam blanks you sell , plus the blanks are still produced specifically for surfboards rather than use something like eps or extruded foam from an other industry

look at the pro tour , how many competitors fly half way around the world to get knocked out in the first round plus all the spectators who come from everywhere to watch , who gives a toss about the environment here , the tour is basically to sell the image and products of surfing,

we all like to go on surf trips with no thought to the environment,  is somewhere like bali a better place because of surfing , i don/t think so ,not just a carbon disaster but a culural one as well 

just to make things clear , my car is 15 years old and averages 67 miles to the gallon, i don/t wear branded surf clothes or even unbranded surf clothes for that matter, the last poly board i had i used for 15 years and that was second hand in 1990

the enviro bit is just over done in the surf world , unless you can walk to your local break
and use a locally grown wood board ,shaped by hand and oiled using plant oils then its not even worth talking about,

as long as there is money to be made the world wil be plundered and raped,

i know these are strong words but if you look at your own cultures, america first , the red indians lived that idyllic nomadic life style, that can be lived that way for milenium, the buffalo herds kept them alive so if they killed too many their way of life suffered so a balance was achieved to sustain life, china was the same , sustainance farming , just enough to live,

new zealand was the same with the maories , living with nature and a sustainable life style, or australia , who knows how long the aboriginaries lived that way and could have lived that way for more thousands of years, untill we came along

this is the only way to live long term and its just too late to turn the clock that far back,

i just cringe when i hear envrio words in the same sentence as surfing, your carpet is man made materials , so is the couch you are sitting on , your vinyl kitchen floor covering, the seat in your car, the computor made from plastic etc, no one gives a hoot about these thing but these are in every home , i am the only surfer in the street where i live of about 100 plus homes so my impact is so small it is insignificant,

i agree with doing things on a personal level and this is what i try to do generally but surfing is growing through different aspects of the media only because there is money to be made from it and money and enviro issues don/t go hand in hand, cyinically, pete

 

[point]

You're making me feel guilty....

I wasn't aware Luan was and old growth tree.  In fact I didn't even cross my mind as cheap usually means readily available and therefore not rare or endangered.  This is a great heads up.

Without a band saw we're pretty much limited to PVC/Core cell, bamboo, balsa, or some ply material.  Not really anything local to speak of.
 

[RoyStewart]

 Just for the record there is such a thing as old growth paulownia, it is highly prized in Japan and China. Paulownia only grows fast in ideal conditions, it needs a lot of nutrients, well drained soil and plenty of water in order to do well.   Slow growing paulownia is heavy.

 I agree with Paul about rainforest timbers, also IMO we should build boards to last and avoid as much fuel intensive travel as possible. . .  i.e surf your local. 

. 

   

[Marco]

OK. I know I spurred this on. So I'll comment.

I stated in my original post that luan is an environmental disaster. The species is on a IUCN critically endangered list. The doorskin sheets are 3mm but only ~0.8mm is luan. The core is pressed mill waste and the backing is some other softwood. I was going to try and source the wood panels from a few actual old doors but all the doors I've found are actually paneled in fiberboard since they are all paint grade.
I'm as environmentally conscious as the next guy but I have to live within my means and abilities.
To that point, I've got some pointers for So Cal folks.
1/8" ply is available from Frost Hardwood In S.D. Species available are Ash, Beech, Birch, Cherry, Maple, Red Oak, and I think Walnut.
I priced Birch out at $23.50 USD for a 4' x 8' sheet.
I've also sourced 1/8" single ply bamboo sheet from TeraGren. It comes in 4' x 8' and is available in vertical or flat grain, caramelized, natural, wheat, chestnut, java, and brindle. The mfg. has a distributor in El Cajon and I've got a price query into him now. The only issue I have with the bamboo, is that it is sourced from China, i.e. human rights disaster.
Ecuadorian Balsa is available in 10' lengths from Tropical Exotic Hardwoods, in Carlsbad.

Can't find Paulownia anywhere local. (Afoaf ?)


I am willing to spend more to maintain the environment, but only to a point. I can probably stomach triple the cost.

If I am to surf my local, then I'd have to make all my boards out of Eucalyptus, Agave, and Palm, and ditch the foam.

To Point's point...
While looking around, I found a 1995 report that claimed the Meranti (Luan) species that are harvested for lumber would be extinct by 2005 if current levels of harvesting continued. Well it's 2008 and harvesting levels have increased over the last 10 years. I believe in (maybe to my detriment) market economy. So if the tree were that rare, why aren't the prices up there with cocobolo, purpleheart, koa, name your favorite exotic hardwood? Why is it considered only good enough to make doorskin out of?
I could go on, but you all get my point.

In the mean time, If I can get the bamboo for $30 so that some poor Chinese day laborer can earn and extra penny, should I take that over helping a Filipino logger feed his family? Or should I only cut down European or N.A. trees?

Please don't take offense to any of this as none is intended.
:-) Have a great day.

[RoyStewart]

 Just to clarify: By surfing your local I meant local surf break   

[Sparrow]

For piece of mind, you can always offset your carbon emissions associated with travel to your surfing locations, and other general travel. I work at an environmentally aware design consultancy and we offset our travel to and from work.

[RoyStewart]

 
  I think that the carbon emissions thing is just a red herring compared with the general squandering of fossil fuels  overconsumption and other forms of pollution which occur.

.

[Sparrow]

The offset company we use, deals in renewable energy sources.

But yeah i'd love to see reductions in those things you mention.

[speedneedle]

I'm with you there Paul...

I'm favouring Bamboo at the Mo...and pawlonia for rails. I may have to compromise my obsession with lightweight...but...

Yeah, I got excited about a white PVC foam I found, then thought...hell, where does THAT come from??

The ultimate plastic board maybe aint so fantastic.

I went to a foam supplier the other day to price foam for my re-incarnation boards...

He was low on EPS, offering me a sheet of "SL-R" grade. The "R" refers to the percentage foam content(I forgot how much) which is reconstituted from ground-up offcuts.

I felt maybe the fusing of the beads could be dubious, and I did'nt go there, though it looked fine.

I've seen what can happen when low-quality foam is used as a core...(The irony of returning to Victoria to go back to the old workshop where the first job off the bat was repairing a delammed FW! The beads had sheared apart in the backfoot area deep in the core, and floated around like bean-bag beads.)

Has anyone knowingly used this "R" graded foam?

Josh

[tomway]

I'm not sure that the moral dilema is really between using old growth/new growth trees. Personally I would rather use mature trees that are nearing the end of there useful lives and have been selected for harvest as part of good forest management, than younger trees from a plantation that exists in an area of forest that was clear cut for the purpose of starting a plantation.

But... yes, I'm being idealistic, and the s.e.asian woods you buy in the west are unlikely to have been selected like this.

Meranti (lauan) is so popular because the trunks are perfectly round and you can slice massive amounts of veneer off em in a few seconds. Every plywood factory here in Indo is tooled up for meranti which is why there is such a reluctance to slice up any other woods for veneer - retooling costs would be enormous and processing other woods would give lower returns.

Having said that there are a select (very select) number of responsible timber users in Indonesia that are starting to use lesser known woods that are responsibly sourced and are equally as beautiful and stable as teak/lauan/merbau etc.  The difficulty is that customers of high-end timber products have been brainwashed in to believing that there are only a handful of 'good' woods.



5'11" x 20" with rails made of a warm pink wood called 'mindi' that is every bit as beautiful as teak but with the glow of mahogany... but seems to be totally unheard of / unwanted by industry, and al basia, which is a very light fast growing wood similar to balsa. Both were individually selected and felled locally. Mahogany tail block was an offcut from a local doormaker.

[paul cannon]

never the less
people i know in australia stopped using meranti over twenty years ago
im am spiritually linked to the rainforest as i spent a lot of time in them
if there was any religion that id believe in
its "not destroying forests and the species in them"
its as important to me as whales and dolphins

im not on any bandwagon or whatever
theres a few things in my house are rainforest speicies
however they are second and recylced
but i wouldnt buy it new
nor kwila timber furniture

 pvc plastic is a far better use for petroleum products then burning it

its pretty simple philosophy

"dont use rainforest timber" because the dont grow back and will be gone eventually
as will the apes and other animals and tribesman that live in them

anyway i believe its in the best interest of the compsand movement that we follow certain guidlines
im putting this one forward as a suggestion
ignore it if you will . but dont get pissed of at me for having these feelings
as you may well tell a christian, jesus was a nob

something being cheap and or accesible is a good thing
but not at the expense of another creatures wellbeing
there is absolutely no reason to use these woods in boards
unless they are recycled etc or locally sourced in a responsible fashion

ive always been kinda suss on the wall hanger mentality