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[simon61i]

Hi Everybody
I will built a Parabolic EPS Epoxy Surfboard laminated with S-Glass and if possible vacuum bagged or infused....
The vacuum thing left me with some questions, how does it work?
Well I know how the vacuum works, but I am not sure about how to laminate the board?

Should I just hand laminate one side and then put it in a vacuum bag and once it is cured just do the other side?
Or should I wrap the entire board with fabric and infuse the resin, but wouldn’t that infuse the EPS as well?

Another question is does the board deform through the vacuum process and will I have to press it into kind of a mould or is that not a problem?

As this is a uni-project that is completely funded by myself I have to keep the costs low, therefore I just wanted to know what kind of materials I definitely need
and if I possible could us a vacuum hand pump (I am not talking about one of this penis pumps more like one of these Kite pumps or equal whatever I can get cheap...)
 
Do I need a gore-tex valve?
Has anyone done some documentation on that or some photos that could help...?

I would appreciate any kind of advice

Cheers from Newquay/UK
Simon

[admin]

hellos simon
no vacuum bagging is necessary for the glass laminate . it has no extra advantages
vacuum bagging is used to adhere sandwich core skin to a blank
something like wood veneer or a boatbuilding foams
check the how to begginers guide for now
heres the link

http://www.compsand.com/forum/advanced_compsand_discussion/the_beginners_guide_on_how_to_do_a_compsand_by_the_gang-t859.0.html

[Kit Sidwell]

Vacuum bagging does have some amazing advantages for outer laminates.....
BUT, the problem is that it is probably the most difficult thing to do properly, and result in a showroom quality board.
And it is definitely not a way of saving time and money! (unless you find a special way!)
But, don't let that discourage you, there should be a way.....

Just realise that these things end up being amazingly complex, so don't expect so have success without a lot of failures, and a lot of time and money invested.
Keep researching!

[admin]

hi kit
what do you think that the advanages of baggin the laminate mate
i dont actually know

[simon61i]

There is one point i couldn’t find enough information on.
I will use a superfused ESP US-Blank with self-made parabolic balsa rails, the blank will be hand shaped.
If I now laminate the board and put it into a vacuum bag will the Board/ Rocker deform and if how can i prevent it from doing that?

cheers
Simon

[mark venn]

Advantages of bagging laminate;
* better resin -glass ratio
* better impregnation of resin into sandwich core
* lighter weight  laminate
* Flattens cloth to sandwich core

The above are however in most cases outweighed by;

* much more fiddly and time consuming
* usually need some consumables, more cost.
* cosmetics are not usually as good, so more time lost on rework

Just my 10 pence worth.

[Kit Sidwell]

Exactly, you beat me to it Mark!

Imagine never having to sand laps again, do a whole board in one hit....

These things are possible, but it's the holy grail....
Like I say, to get a showroom finish is really really hard!

The properties of a laminate that is adhered with pressure are VASTLY greater than a hand layed laminate.
The boatbuilder guys have known this for years, they just don't do comsetically perfect, clear laminates, like we do!

[admin]

you shouldnt be sanding laps kit
for the deck, tape and cut 5 to 10  minutes with the surform blade
bottom let hang and zip

i could argue about it being vastly greater
people ignore that resin has dent resistant properties just by itself
a thicker more resin rich laminate is more dent resistant
word is that coils dent
a compsand skined board doesnt need more then 3 oz laminate for overall board strength
we increase the glass and resin content to improve denting and waterproofing
i could argue that it was inferior (using the same amount of glass) for the purpose or alternately "over engineered" if using extra glass

[lemat]

With modelist experience (build airplane), i try to make a vac bag lam with pell ply en breather : It's not very hard, i mask the board where i don't want resin, then i sand the lam on the mask tape and cutlap easy. The finish lam was correct and very light, BUT i need lot of resin for feel the lam and at the end board wasn't so light. Never do it again. I prefer try to make a good hand lam with multi layer of 4oz warp. I found easiest to make a good ratio with this glass. If i want light and strong, i (try) make a compsand !

[Kit Sidwell]

If I now laminate the board and put it into a vacuum bag will the Board/ Rocker deform and if how can i prevent it from doing that?

Hi Simon,
Are you using sandwich skins over the blank, or are you just going to laminate straight onto the EPS?

If you have vacuumed skins onto the board, then the rocker should remain accurate when you bag the outer laminate.
If you are bagging glass just onto a parabolic railed blank, then the rocker may change... it depends if the parabolic rails are rigid enough to keep the rocker perfect.

Paul, surely you'd rather have a high fibre content? The higher the fibre content (up to an optimum), the more damage tolerance you get.
That goes for piercing dings and snap strength.

Laps - you gotta take them down some how? with surform, sandpaper, or whatever you like?
A vac bagged lam wouldnt even require it, they'd be flat straight out of the bag.
I've done vac bagged laminates, and got all the benefits, except cosmetics!
Always seems to result in air trapped in the weave, or the laminate being slightly dry, which is great for strength but bad for cosmetics.
I'm not chasing bagged lams at the moment, but I may revisit it at some stage.

[soulvoid]

you shouldnt be sanding laps kit
for the deck, tape and cut 5 to 10  minutes with the surform blade
bottom let hang and zip

i could argue about it being vastly greater
people ignore that resin has dent resistant properties just by itself
a thicker more resin rich laminate is more dent resistant
word is that coils dent
a compsand skined board doesnt need more then 3 oz laminate for overall board strength
we increase the glass and resin content to improve denting and waterproofing
i could argue that it was inferior (using the same amount of glass) for the purpose or alternately "over engineered" if using extra glass

Just thickness by itself would improve dent resistance. However, wouldn't you want the sandwich to deal with dent resistance? If you could do it with extra glass at the same weight, you would improve ding resistance. Given that at least balsa tend to be ruined if it soaks water and that most people are pretty sick and tired of fixing dings, wouldn't that be a good thing?

[admin]

hey kit there is a correct way for doing a deck lap
you mask and tape , cut at the right time and the correct technique
then you dont even need to touch it with the surform blade
it is so flat and leaves a perfect line
the surform is for when you fuck it up and leave to much resin in the nose and tail folds
it honestly is a very quick to take the edge off the lap (i bet it takes huie 2 minutes)
there is so much misleading information on swaylocks about laps
this is the correct way teached by jedi master
strong is the temptation to go to the dark side

there is no need to put anymore cloth on a compsand it will stiffen the board
glass bruises (permenent cosmetic damage)
poly gloss chips off ( five minute repair and invisible)
i cant dent a 4 oz laminate with fill and gloss wtf

i think it is waste of time to try an save weight in the laminate
its not a space shuttle
there are better ways to save weight imo
how light do you want a surfboard anyway
i think people think that compsands are to light anyway
5 pounds is optimal weight and people like foot wells LOL

[simon61i]

If I now laminate the board and put it into a vacuum bag will the Board/ Rocker deform and if how can i prevent it from doing that?

Hi Simon,
Are you using sandwich skins over the blank, or are you just going to laminate straight onto the EPS?

If you have vacuumed skins onto the board, then the rocker should remain accurate when you bag the outer laminate.
If you are bagging glass just onto a parabolic railed blank, then the rocker may change... it depends if the parabolic rails are rigid enough to keep the rocker perfect.

hi kit  sidwell

so far I was going to laminate 2 layers of 6 oz s-glass on the deck and 1 layer of 6 oz s-glass on the bottom straight onto the EPS.
haven't even thought of a sandwich skin resp. am not even quite sure what that is ... I have to do some research on that cause it sounds interesting...
well the parabolic rails will be 1/4 inch thick each made out of 2 layers of balsa veneer and one layer of maple veneer i have to decide if that will be stable enough when i have clued them to the blank and completely shaped it what will not be till mid of January

the idea with the vacuum i aimed to get a better glass resin ratio and remember it is also a uni project so extra work and some extra cost for a resin that goes into breather should not be the main issue well most importantly I still want to get the best surfing board possible... :-)
 
thanx for all the great feedback so far keep it coming appreciate it

regards
simon[/size][/size]

[admin]

spend the money on a sandwhich skin if you want to do bagging
a bag is just a tool , like a surform or planer it has its purpose
you wont get a better board then a standard polyurethane board hand laminated with epoxy or polyester
unless of course you build a compsand
bak me up guys

making a normal surfboard is a challenge in its own right btw

[admin]

this is more of the "spacepen"